Curran family documents(with a little bit of background)#1

Here is a list of some documents I have in relation to my family history, census records, marriage certs, birth certs etc. Also I will add some footnotes about what sort of background i know of the situation looking at them.

Martin Curran(B1862) Marriage cert

Just three days earlier, on the 27th april, the summer Olympics had started in London, and the day after the nazi, Oskar Schindler, who was described as 'The Unforgettable Lifesaver of 1200 Persecuted Jews' was born.

Fairview church is found in the northeastern end of Dublin city, nestling on the banks of the River Tolka. Five years earlier my Grandfather, martin Curran had lost his first wife margaret Gaul, from Knocksquire, County Carlow. He had three surviving children from this marriage. These were Mary(11years) Sarah(9years) and frank(10years), these are the ages they were in 1908. Margaret Doyle, my grandmother had known martin previously, and was a minder of Martins children. At the time martin was living in the family home in richmond avenue, fairview, and Margaret Doyle resided in Russell terrace in Church Road, Eastwall. Margaret lived with

Alfred and Sarah Spellman of Russell Terrace. Alfred(39 at the time), who was born in Australia, was a carriers clerk, and reputedly owned a pub in Henry street in Dublin city. Sarah was the female witness at the wedding, she was 35 years old at the time, and was born in County Wicklow. My aunt kathleen Curran remembers this couple as being close friends of Margaret, her mother. At that time they had been married for 16 years, and had no children.  Kathleen also noted that her brother Alfred(my uncle) was named after this gentleman.

William Flynn, was the male witness at the wedding, he was a barber, and ran his business in fairview strand, where he also lived, He married mary in 1908, begging the question were martin and william married on the same day. William and his wife mary were both 24 years of age at the time.

The priest that married, my grandparents was, Denis Pettit, who was 56 years old and from Granard, County Longford.

There are alot of theories shooting around about the wedding, and many questions to answer, Martin was 45 on his wedding day, and William Flynn was only 24. Would it have been a fact that William was marrying in the church on the same day, and martin got him because he had no male witness? Or were they genuinely friends? Time will tell, as I will checkout William and Marys wedding date.

16 june 2011
Just a small update on this, i did check up on william flynns marriage date and it was the 20/7/1908, so he was not married on the same day. though 26 fairview strand is quite literally opposite the church, and maybe it was the case that martin 'nabbed' him. maybe he knew him, maybe he didn't. we will never know.

Curran gravestones in Drumphea, County Carlow

 There are two gravestones, right in the backwoods of southeastern carlow, in a quaint little village called

Drumphea, this how they read;

My grandfather, Martin Curran, seemed like myself to have a very strong connection with his ancestors, he raised this grave in memory of his father and also all of those in the grave, but also, there is one thing to note, and it is important, that not necarsarily are all the people mentioned on the stones are actually interred beneath them, there are at least three of them, firstly Martin Curran DMP himself, he lived and died up in Dublin and is buried in Glasnevin cemetery. second on the list is Peter Curran, who is buried with his family in Bunclody, just a few miles from Drumphea. Then thirdly is Catherine Curran, who is buried with her family in St Patricks cemetery in Vernon county, Wisconsin, USA. Upon seeing these graves in this light, it would be quite safe to say that these gravestones, one of which was erected by Martin DMP was more of a tribute to his Carlow family, rather than just a normal record of who lies below. A kind of genealogical list for future Currans to visit and admire.

The great thing about these graves is that they immediately transport us back to around 1788, when my Great Great Grandfather, Martin Curran was born(according to the stone) and his wife anne who was born a year later.

Though I cannot say 100%, that alot of the dates and ages mentioned on the stone do not nessarsarily add up. I will give all the examples i know at present(11/09)

Nannie Curran died 4/12/1884 age 24 years, I have seen her christening record as 30/1/1857 as anne, she would have actually been just two months short of her 28th birthday.

Mary Curran died 27th april 1889 age 27 years, once again, I have seen her baptismal cert on 4 nov 1858 which would have made her 30 years old.

Patrick Curran died 4 april 1889 age 17 years, again I have seen his civil birth certificate for 27 feb 1870 so he would've be over 19 years.

Peter curran died 11 may 1929 age 56. Peter is buried over in the old cemetery in bunclody, on that grave it states that he died in 1928, he was born 1 feb 1872, according to the civil record of his birth. It would be correct in bunclody but he should be 57 on the drumphea grave.

Bridget Curran died jan 12 1963 age 85, I have seen her civil record, and she was born 14 may 1875, 4 months short of her 88th birthday.

There are a couple of reasons this may have  happenned. Firstly when Martin was erecting the first grave he may have had record of the dates of death, and may have gone by his memory, as to how old they were when they died, I was told by my father that Martin DMP was quite old when that grave was raised. The next, and most probable explanation, was the fact that back in those days, people just didn't celebrate their birthdays like what we do nowadays, your birthday would just come and go, without you being aware of it, and then as time went on, birthdays came more fashionable, and then these people may have speculated their age, usually giving it a couple of years younger than they actually were. I have seen it elsewhere in my ancestry.

I know for a fact that  James and Sarah are definitely correct. As for the rest, I don't know.

There is a third Curran grave in Drumphea just a few yards away from these two.  I have recently spoken to a second cousin, who has informed me that it is of her father James Curran, who was the son of Francis Curran.

Curran family reunion in Drumphea, and a brief visit to Kildavin and Clonegal

It was a very interesting day I had yesterday, I was invited along to a Curran family reunion, my grandfather’s two brothers, Frank and Peter Curran’s descendants had all met at Bunclody Golf Club. Then they were going on to Bunclody old Cemetery, to see Peter Currans grave, I didn’t make it to meet them there as there was a bit of a mix up. I actually had a bit of a mini tour of a few cemeteries before I met up with them.

My Great Great Grandfather, Thomas Doyle and his wife Anne Willis's gravestone, and other family. also the various inscriptions around the grave

Firstly, I visited Kildavin old cemetery, where my GGGP’s Tom Doyle and Anne Willis are buried, I used to have a picture of this grave but lost a whole pile of genealogy pics on an old card I had. So I needed to redo them. So my main objective here was to take pictures of all Doyle and Curran graves that I saw, I also had a request from a genealogist to look out for Devereux graves too, of which I found one, so happy days. I also found a grave for one James Curran, who after much thought, I now know was my GGF’s Francis Currans brother. I know this because my Grandfathers sister, Catherine had moved up to Kildavin, and was registered as living there when she married Michael Ralph. Like most other older Curran’s, they tended to go and live with or close to wherever other family members were, on this occasion it was with Uncle Jim in Kildavin. There are other Doyle graves in Kildavin, and in time I will connect them.

Gravestone of my great grandfather Peter Doyle and his wife Mary Redmond, also in this grave is my Great Great grandparents James Redmond and Catherine Kenny

Next up, I went to Clonegal, where I took pictures of all Doyle and Redmond graves, as this is the graveyard that my GGF Peter Doyle and Mary Redmond are buried, Mary is from Clonegal, so there has to be other Redmond relatives here.

After this, I was supposed to go to Bunclody cemetery, but it did not happen. I did visit, however the protestant cemetery in Clonegal. There were a few Doyle’s in there, but I don’t think they are connected, or are they?

After this, I headed toward Drumphea, though I was slightly delayed in my journey with a bit of a bump with another car. But in good time I made it to Drumphea. The Currans were all there, my camera was now broken by this time too. So I took no pics here. Later we went to the local hostelry called High Nelly’s Pub, where I then found that I had a puncture. There was a big crowd of Currans in the pub, but as I said, no camera, so will just have to wait for the next reunion. I will hopefully be holding it in conjunction with my brothers visit in September, so plenty of pics then. They are a lovely family, and though not 100% percent the same as my own family, there is still those traits, which were quite extensively discussed. The men all very grey haired, even the ones in their forties, like myself, the ‘big blue eyes’ as someone described them, it was true, I saw a picture of Peter Curran, my grandfathers brother, and they had the same features, notably the chin, which seemed to show on a few people in the room, and the nose, I showed them a picture of my dad, and it was noticed that this is a similar nose to alot of people in the room. The picture of peter really reminded me of my sister’s dot and carol, especially across the eyes, and it even reminded me a bit of one of carols boys. I also had the pleasure of meeting Joan Curran who would be my father’s first cousin. I also had the pleasure of meeting Winnie, whom I had spoken to on so many other occasions, and finally had the pleasure of meeting her face to face. As well as all the other Currans, Daly’s and Hoolahans, whom some I had met in Dublin previously, but met a few more this time round. We had a great afternoon, which in view of the other events that happened in the day to me with the car, really outshone them, and left me on departure, alot more upbeat and uplifted. These Currans are a really nice family, and I am really grateful that they have let me into their fold.

Visit to Glasnevin cemetery

Yesterday afternoon was an absolute scorcher, well for us anyway, so I had a bit of time on my hands, so took a stroll around Glasnevin cemetery to visit relatives. I took some pics of my relatives graves and thought i'd show them here.

First up is my Gradfather, Martin Currans grave (NH172.5)

It was quite a surprise to see that work is being carried out in the area, this area was very over grown and uneven, it was really cool to see it being returned to it's former glory, I have seen other areas which the work has been completed and they look good. the only snag was that, even though it doesn't really apply to martins grave, if there was anything on the ground in front of the graves it has all been removed, there was a small bush in front of this grave that my dad planted, and that is gone, but it all looks so good now.

My Uncle Frank Curran(JL291.5)

My Uncle Alf, he is in the cremation plot near the front gate

John Curran, my Grandfathers Uncle(circled)WD88.5

Closer view of John Currans grave top half

.....And bottom half

Deborah Maher nee Curran, my fathers 1st cousin(daughter of Peter Curran, Newtownbarry) in the cremation plot.

My wifes Grandparents on her mothers side

My wifes Great Grandparents

My wifes great grandfather, William Brophys grave, marked X YD144

Teresa Hayden, my wifes great great grandmother, marked X BK321

Summary

I have now, over about the last three weeks shown a summary of the various aspects of my and my wifes genealogy. I have to say that while I have been doing this alot has been brought to a head, it has been the first time that I have really reviewed all the work I have carried out over the last two and a half years. It says to me how far I have come, and all the people I have met, which has truly been an experience in itself, and I hope to continue making headway for all the family groups which I have covered. Some of these families knew very little when I started, but now know more, but I would love to have that clarity of vision, that you seem to see on “who do you think you are” but then they have a field of professional genealogical experts.

I have always felt that hunting it down and finding it yourself is really satisfying, though I have received help from a couple of online forums, and of course the Church of the Latter Day Saints in Glasnevin. So I suppose now is the time to give a big thank you to all the people and organisations who have supplied, pointed, collaborated and assisted me on my road thus far:

Dermot Curran                  Andrew Curran                 Mary Curran(O’Rorke)   Patricia Hills(O’Rorke)

Kathleen Curran               Michael Foley                    Richard Hoolahan             Frank Curran(Drumphea)

Winnie Dowling                                Tillie Brennan                     Senan Cooke                     Dr Kieron Cooke

Frank Curran(Carlow town)         Katsy Hanly         Deirdre Kelly                      Margaret Mills

Liam Brophy                       Eileen Howard                   Christine Mills                    Les Mills

Helen Casey                       Catherine@LDS                                Brian@LDS                          The Dent family in Canada

The National Library of Ireland                                   The church of the Latter Day Saints, Glasnevin

The National Archives of Ireland                               The Glasnevin Trust        The Garda Museum, Dublin Castle

The Vernon County Historical Society                     Terry Curran

If there is a name here I haven’t mentioned, then tell me, and I will add it to the list. These are just from the top of my head, I am absolutely amazed when I look at this list, to realise that I have contacted so many individuals!

Many people give me a pat on the back, and say I am doing a great job finding out all this stuff, but it is only the tip that I am scratching at, I suppose after a decade or so, chipping away, I will truly show a bit more beef. I don’t personally think I do that well, and I feel I move to slowly, but this is just through pure thoroughness of study. It is really good to fully read everything as it may have to be referenced back to in the future.

It is an uphill climb, but every now and then you come across a snippet of information that may point you in another direction, or even the right direction!! It is always great to exchange notes with fellow family historians as they are as hungry as you are for information.

As to where to go in the future:

Currans:               It is all quite transparent back to my granddad and his siblings to the present day, so now is the case to move onto Francis Curran(my GGF) and his siblings and work to the present day, I will probably start with John Curran, who seemed to be closely associated with my granddads family. I have also liaised with a fellow Curran family historian, Terry Curran, who is studying the Currans of Carlow town, who we both know are related to the Currans of Drumphea, but as yet, there is no connection, hopefully in the future we will collaborate more.

Doyles:                 nearly all is known back to my grandmother and back to the present day, and I have had a little more success in fiding a brother of my GGF’s Descendant living in auystralia and she was very accommodating with information. It would be nice to try and piece together all the Doyles who are buried in Clonegal, Kildavin and Bunclody, and find the connections. But then all the willis’ and redmonds too.

Mills:                     Loads to do on my wifes grandparents and their siblings, another way off in the distance project.

Brophy:                                Alot of headway was made particularly with the brophys, and I hope to find more in the future.

O’Rorke:              I have names dating back to AD310, but know very little about them, so a future project is to read up on them, and hopefully have a bit more of a knowledge of my forefathers. Whom, from what I have briefly seen, have a very colourful history, what with tribal clans, celtic kings and the norman invasion of Ireland seem to have the O’Rorke name written all over them.

Cooke:                  Like the Mills’ and the O’Rorkes, I still need to go back to the grandparents siblings, and work my way back forward to the present day. The Cookes, again like the O’Rorkes, have a really colourful history dating back to the middle ages, Oliver Cromwell, stately homes, Lord Chief Justice of England are a few things I have seen in my brief looks at their history.

As I said before, it is an uphill struggle, which I hope to pursue for the rest of my life, as I really want to see some connections happen. I know they will, and this is the purpose of this blog, just to keep inputting info until I have no more, but it will never run out. I know a genealogist, who is constantly pursueing her family, and now has something in the region of 4000 individuals in her family tree!! Maybe in the future, I can proudly say that with some clarity.

The Brophys' and the Kellys'

Onto my wife's mother's side. My mother in laws mother and father were John Brophy and Eileen Kelly. Not much has been known about the Brophy side, but I can proudly say that I have taken a step or two forward in the time I have worked on this aspect of the family. John was born in the north city Dublin in 1908, it is not to clear what happened, but by the time of the census, his sister and himself are no longer with their parents and are living in Ringsend, Dublin, with possibly his aunt on his father’s side.
Upon questioning his children, it all appears very vague, though we do now know that Johns father, William is still alive and is seen in the 1911 census as living as a tenant in Capel Street. His trade description on this was a cork cutter. I went looking up at Glasnevin cemetery and asked around, they said there was a William who died in 1919 and was a cork cutter! Bingo! Though unfortunately it was an unmarked grave, but at least I found him.
Though I cannot say where William was from, though the aunt who John Brophy lived in Ringsend with, her maiden name was Brophy and she was born in Thomas Street in Dublin. But it has also been said that he was from county Carlow, which would not be too hard to say, as it is a relatively common name down in those parts.
William was married to Teresa Hayden, apparently I was told she was from county Louth, I tracked her down to being born in Mary Street, Drogheda. Another feather in my cap. I found out the name of her mum and dad, Michael Hayden and Teresa Walsh, Teresa subsequently moved out of Drogheda and down to Terrace Place in Dublin, and ended her days there. By the way this is where John Brophy was born. I also found the location of her grave in Glasnevin cemetery, though it is an unmarked one like Williams. But still no trace of Teresa Hayden junior, it has been said to me that she may have died when John was born and that is how he ended up with other family away from dad. But there are no records of a Teresa B dying around that time, though there is one for 1919, that will still have to be checked out. Apparently there is only one Teresa Brophy buried in Glasnevin for that period, but she is a child. This is quite a hard one but I have given it alot of time, and still wish to give it alot more.
Also, up in Drogheda, there is an old cemetery on Chord Road and I am very sure there are Haydens buried there, though when I went there, it was extremely overgrown and the gates were locked.
The mother in law’s mother was Ellen Kelly, better known as Sisse. Her family are alot more clear cut, she was born down in Gloucester Place in Dublin, to a very large family. Her father was William from county Carlow, and her mother was Margaret Farrell from Maddabawn county Cavan.
The kellys’ have many descendants and they all seem to be in touch, and with the brophys’ too.  

The Mills' and the Jones'

Jack and Lily Mills and children

Now over to my wife’s side, her maiden name was Mills, and she is from Dublin. Her father who sadly passed away in the mid 90’s, he was named Davie and is buried in Malahide CoI cemetery. He is buried with his mother and father there, Jack and Elizabeth Mills, Elizabeth’s maiden name was Jones and she was born in Garth Bach, Caernarvonshire, Wales.

Davie was in fact born down in Kineagh, county Kildare, his father was a caretaker for a man called Colonel Blackner, who lived in a stately home in Castlemartin, Kilcullen, county Kildare. At a young age Davie moved up to Malahide and his father Jack became a groundskeeper for Lord Talbot, who owned Malahide castle at the time. The mills’ lived in the gatehouse which is still there on Malahide road. Davie was a mechanic, and had for many years had the prestige of working as a mechanic for Rolls Royce, up to his retirement.

Jack with horse

Jack Mills, Davies father was born in Cromwellstown, Rathangan, county Kildare, in 1890, he was born as John William Mills. Though in the 1901 and 1911 census, he is living in Kilcullen. He met his future wife, Lily in Ireland, she may have worked around the Johnstown area of Kildare. Jack and Lily had four children, of which Davie was the youngest. Jack was in the British army during the First World War, and served in the Army Remount Service, a department that deals with the upbringing, training and deployment of horses within the army. They were quite a major unit in those days, because most things were done with horses in those days, rather than motorized. When Jack moved into Malahide, he was known to be involved in the upbringing and training of racehorses. Jack passed away in 1963 and Lily in 1954.

Going back a little further, Jacks dad was Michael Mills who was born in 1860 in county Kildare, his Mother was Hannah Ward born about 1868 also in county Kildare. Jack was one of ten siblings. I have gone down around Kilcullen and had a look around the local CoI cemetery in Yellow Bog, but no luck in finding Michael or his family, there is another Mills in there, but though she may be a cousin. The Blackners are all buried in this cemetery, so you’d naturally think there would be Mills’ there too. I have been told that there is an old church and cemetery in Castlemartin, but as yet, I still have to check.

Davies mother lily as we know is from Wales, her father was Robert Jones, who died before she was born. Her mother was Laura Green possibly from Dorset. Davies Grandfather and Grandmother on his mother’s side were William Jones and Mary.

I found alot of this side out through help I received from web forums, on this occasion, rootschat. I was told of a grave in St Cedols Cemetery, Pentir near Bangor, Wales (HO63 is the number), in which William, Mary and Robert are buried. Apparently there is an inscription on it in welsh, which I shall share with you:

“Am hyny byddwch chwithau barod:/Canys yn yr awr ni thybioch y daw/Mab y dyn”

Translated;

“For ye that are ready: / For in the hour we come to the house of god / Son of man”

I have heard it from a couple of people that the Jones family were related to former British Prime Minister David Lloyd George. I have thrown this too into the forums, but haven’t had much joy. Though he is from not too far away from the Bangor area.